The Caregiving Episode

Andrea Herron
Have you ever wondered how a company is able to offer unlimited time off or be a pet friendly office? Curious how HR leaders manage the well being of remote or essential workforces? If so, you’ve come to the right place. Hi, I’m Andrea Herron, head of people for WebMD health services. And I’d like to welcome you to the HR scoop. On this podcast, I talk with other HR leaders to explore the world of unique employee benefits, and about the challenges of managing unique workforces, because well being isn’t a one size fits all approach.

On this episode of the HR scoop, we’re pleased to welcome Jessica Kim, CEO of IANA care, a company focused on supporting caregivers will answer all your questions about caregiving, including how caregiving benefits can bridge the gap between corporate culture, DNI talent acquisition and retention, and even mental health. I hope you enjoy this enlightening conversation as much as I did. Welcome back everyone to another episode of the HR scoop. Today we’re going to be talking about caregiving, I know it’s come up and really want to spend a little bit more time doing a deep dive into caregiving and how it’s evolved and kind of how employers might be able to help solve for it. So with us today, I am really pleased to have Jessica Kim, the CEO of Ayana, which means I am not alone. Welcome, Jessica.

Jessica Kim
Thank you so much, Andrea, it’s great to be here. Yeah,

Andrea Herron
this, as I mentioned, this topic is exploded, shall we say, with the pandemic, and it doesn’t seem to really be going anywhere. Because, you know, the world shifted, we know more things are just different. And like most things, it’s going to take businesses and companies a little bit of time to catch up, especially when it comes to offering actual services or benefits as part of their package to their employees. So I think it’s really exciting to have you here. And maybe just to start, you know, I would be curious about when you were creating this company, you know, what is something you didn’t know about caregiving? Or what is something different from your unique caregiving situation? I don’t know, just give us a little background like, what how did you even get into this,

Jessica Kim
so much to talk about, I’m excited about this conversation. So to step back, you know, ionic errors, this whole infrastructure of support for working family caregivers. And so we do work with employers to offer this as a benefit. And we’ve seen such tremendous impact, especially after the pandemic, to your point, this fundamental shift that I started IANA care with my co founder, Steve Lee, back in 2018. And this is my third startup. I’ve scaled businesses in family and tech for over 15 years. But I did not intend to start this business. My mom had pancreatic cancer for seven and a half years. And I was thrust into that role, like many caregivers were all thrust into it and don’t plan for it. And I was put into this role of navigating all of her care, performing all the nursing duties, managing all the logistics and feeding and bathing her and eventually carrying her. My kids at that time were 10, seven and five. And I ended up really feeling forced to quit my job for the first time ever in my life, to be her full time caregiver for about two years until she passed away in my home. And it was the hardest, loneliest and most stressful years of my life.

And then my co founder, Steve, you know, he grew up with his grandfather who had Parkinson’s, and saw his family struggle for decades. And so as we both looked at the market, and just reflected on our shared experiences across decades, right, caregiving, we were noticing that caregiving was defined in such a narrow way. And the solution is only covered a sliver of the full spectrum of what happens in a caregivers life. And so it really compelled us and led us to build not just a tool or a point solution, but instead a full infrastructure of support to navigate all the care in the home. So we always say that ionic air were the front door to navigating all the care in the home that you need. That is

Andrea Herron
so interesting. And you know, sorry for the loss of your mother. And that sounds incredibly difficult and challenging. I mean, even one of those situations at a time right? Having a sick parent or someone you’re taking care of, and or having three children, right both bring their own battles. And then also we’re just expected to parent like we don’t work and work like we don’t parent work like you aren’t caregiving and caregiving like you don’t work so I think it’s really interesting, especially since you started this in 2018. Before it was even as on the radar as it is now. So what I Has anything surprised you as you’ve gone through the journey of trying to get it off the ground and kind of get businesses to incorporate it? Well,

Jessica Kim
it’s it’s fascinating. The biggest surprise was I did not realize how many people were doing this while working full time. We often think about caregivers, being the one caring in the home all the images that you see if you google it are by the bedside. But it is mind boggling to see that the majority over 70% of family caregivers work full time. So it’s this hidden work that is happening before, during and after work at horrors. The recent status caregivers are doing 25 plus hours of caregiving on top of their full time jobs, and on top of their regular normal life, and other family responsibilities. And so when we first launched, you know, we didn’t know who they were, you know, we just launched this app and tried to get to make sure that it works. And we had, within that first couple of months, we had over 10,000 people using our app, and 85% of them were working full time and saying that the lack of support and recognition and acknowledgement was a major point of additional stress.

And so that’s really what brought us and opened our eyes to saying, oh my gosh, like employers need to be part of this. Because and that was a surprising thing. Because if you haven’t gone through it, you just see the caregiver and the role more in the clinical setting, and not in the everyday setting that impacts every single one of us. And you see it in numbers. So you know, the latest stat, I can’t wait for the post pandemic stat of this, because we’re still in the midst of it. But 32% of caregivers voluntarily leave their jobs due to caregiving situations. And that was pre pandemic. So it’s a lot higher than that. But the really fascinating thing that we saw in our own direct work was that people weren’t taking leave of absence or quitting their jobs completely, to arrest up or spend quality time with their loved ones. They were quitting because they were frantically trying to figure out how are we going to get and manage this care, right.

And so when you pinpoint that issue along that journey, you realize that is something that we can solve, that’s something preventable, we can provide them that knowledge and that infrastructure support. So then when they do take time off or take leave, it’s actually something that they’re spending quality time with their loved ones or resting up, and then they can return to work, which is what everybody wants. Yeah.

Andrea Herron
And I really think of, you know, the stress that that adds to people and the toll that takes on their mental health and their ability to even perform their job. And maybe there’s been more flexibility, I would think over the pandemic, with most people either being hybrid or remote for some period of time. So maybe there was a little and kind of breath, they’re able to better manage, but also, you know, that’s not going to last forever, and it’s still you have to work. It’s just maybe you flex your hours, but you’re still putting in the hours. So yeah, totally. I said to see if that fluctuates over time.

Jessica Kim
It’ll be interesting. I think we’re all waiting to see what this major shift that you opened up this whole conversation with, which is so spot on. How, what does that going to look like? Right? Because people are looking for a different balance. It’s not like we’re gonna go back to what it was before. But we can’t quite be like what we were during the pandemic. And so what does it look like? And I think that’s a big part of what we’re hoping to figure out as we partner with employers is that as you have so many million things on your plate, let us handle what this new work life balance care situation looks like. And let us help make your employees more productive as this all pans out.

Andrea Herron
So I guess, as you’ve gone through your work, you mentioned, you know, a lot of the images and things that we see would be people in a clinical setting. What other misconceptions are there about caregiving that you’ve come across?

Jessica Kim
Oh, there’s so many. I think we continue to uncover them. But I would what comes to mind are two major ones. One is how do we even define caregiving, right? And then I think the other the second one is what do people need help with when they are going through it? And so going to the first one, when we often think about caregiving, we tend to think about the beginning of life and end of life. So you think about child care, elder care, but if you think about it life, most of our lives are lived in the in between, right and so as we even see, yes, of course, there’s a lot of childcare and eldercare needs and by the way, when I say eldercare, I am not talking about the AARP definition that we are going to start getting pamphlets for when we were like No, I am not old yet. We’re talking elder cares. Like usually it’s like 85 Plus and when we’re talking about elder care, so if you think about infancy and then 85 Plus I I mean, we’re missing a whole chunk of what caregiving is. And we even see that with our 1000s of caregivers on our app, and we capture all the different situations. And you know, over 75% of the conditions are these long tail care situations that are completely overlooked. And so we you know, we define caregiving across all conditions, all ages, so chronic conditions, special needs, disabilities, aging, veteran care, mental health, and even crisis and accidents, because you can not have a terminal diagnosis or long term condition, but you need that extra few weeks of support, or if not months, and in those situations, you really need that one place to go for all the solutions.

So I think the first thing is, you know, we’re really passionate about like, let’s broaden the definition of caregiving. And that has to start there, and even with employers, and with our policymakers, with our friends and family, because it’s only until we recognize that that will actually start asking, Where’s the support for all of these situations. So that was the one thing that we realized. And that’s a misconception. And then the other misconception, and I fell into this initially was that caregiving is such a human experience. And so we think that people want to only connect with other humans, right. And that, you know, in the hospital systems, caregivers are given these resources with human social workers. And they’re critically and they’re very important, but it’s, but it’s not how people want to interact, all the time when they’re thinking about navigating and organizing and creating, you know, coordinating all the logistics. And so my favorite analogy to this, and I don’t know if you remember this, but do you remember having to call 411 and talking to a live operator, just to figure out what your local pizzeria was

Andrea Herron
a nightmare. It was a nightmare. It’s like, I

Jessica Kim
laugh when I think back at those days where we had to call 411 and say, What is my local pizzeria. And I feel like so much of healthcare, some of it is still there. And with caregiving, we think you just need to talk to a human every single time, where now we have Yelp, where we can kind of curate it based on our filters and what we need, we can quickly see what’s around us and all these resources that you wouldn’t have access to otherwise, we really address health equity. And it’s a lot more effective, efficient. And it’s honestly how people want to interact, when they’re thinking about what resources do I have? How do I coordinate things, people are empowered with these amazing mobile devices. And so, you know, that’s really embeds, why we created our solution. And the way that we have five layers for them, our tech, and 80% of the interactions happen through tech, even though they have access to an unlimited human navigator. So it just goes to show that as we have this misconception of caregivers need other people. And that’s it. It’s not always better to have a human connection with social worker, you we have that but you also need other layers of support. And so yeah, I think, you know, it helps us realize that we can leverage technology in in the same way that we do in all other areas in our life.

Andrea Herron
That’s such a good point. I mean, people don’t want to talk to humans for simple questions anymore. If it’s a support group, or there’s a purpose, or you’re having an issue that you want to talk through it. That makes sense. But yeah, probably 80% of things, you could just look up yourself or have a text base programming, we’re seeing that even in, you know, some of the coaching or mental health therapist apps, you know, even in that situation, if it’s something light, you know, you can start with a TextView or respond to one thing I love about this whole idea is just the continual evolution of benefits and what people expect and why employers should care.

I mean, this is something we talk about a lot here on this podcast, because I mean, I can imagine five years ago, even employers Yeah, why would I be concerned in any way shape or form with helping someone with their personal responsibilities at home, right, and we have really shifted away from that out of necessity through the pandemic, with a mental health crisis with, you know, all of that to where we’re realizing more and more and more, you, you need to deal with it, because it’s a people thing, and you employ people. And when people are healthier and able to, you know, manage their lives effectively. It shows up in their performance, it shows up in their work, it shows up in their loyalty, and you actually benefit from it. So I think this is just another example of something that maybe wouldn’t have worked even five years ago.

Jessica Kim
Yeah, no, you’re right. I 100% agree with you think five years ago, there was such a separation, even though people didn’t want it, but it was either. You know, you have to pick a certain company, but that’s kind of the norm, if you will. And since the pandemic, people have really read their reevaluating, we’re all including us, right? We’re reevaluating? What is the most important thing in life? How do we want to live, we have shown to be effective and productive. We’re still figuring out the best ways to do that. But it is a different framework and desire now. So yeah, I mean, I think, for employers have such an integral, and I think, such an integral role, and how this all works.

You know, I think about IANAcare and and just caregiving in general, and how do we change the culture of how we care for one another. And when we think about that, you know, it can’t be done in a silo, we need all these key institutions. And so, you know, you asked about just like, why would employers care? And I think a really direct, you know, even if they’re not like, oh, I want to be part of changing culture. There’s a huge war on talent right now. Right? And I really think it shows up in three really key initiatives that I bet 90 plus percent of employers today are saying, yes, that’s something we need to figure out and move forward. And the three that come to mind that really bubbled up for us that we work closely with is D and i and b, right.

So all the diversity efforts and making people feel welcomed and belong in the sense of belonging, there’s this whole talent retention issue, not only for caregivers, but for everyone who just wants to work and live in a certain way. And then you talked about mental health. And that’s a huge thing. And so, you know, if we break those down, like DEI, it’s not only it’s in several ways, so if we think about women, and keeping women in the workforce, and in leadership, I don’t care what you do, but you cannot begin to think that you’re moving that forward without addressing their care infrastructure. Right? It continues to be especially for women, and now more men, to be honest, right? A reason why people leave or take, don’t take that promotion, because they have all this care responsibilities. And they don’t want to miss out on that. Or they don’t even know how to handle that, or coordinate all of that. So that’s a huge thing to care infrastructure has to be part of, of keeping women in the workforce. And then it’s also deeply cultural, like caregiving is so tied to culture, our values, how we understand fam families working.

And so what even me I’m a, you know, I’m a Korean American. And when I looked at some of these caregiving situate, like solutions that are currently out there, it was all about outsourcing care. And in my life, and in my culture, that was just not an option. So there’s nothing for me. And so we deeply embedded all these options to empower caregivers with choice based on their cultural values, and everyone is trained on that. And then, you know, we often don’t talk about in terms of diversity, but the socio economic differences, right, so especially in any company, not everyone is going to be in the same socio economic class, or have the same financial situation or status.

And so how do you create this benefit that really addresses on the whole spectrum? Because caregiving does not choose, right? It’s not selective, that everyone has different differences in their in their support structure in that sense. And so, you know, with when we when employers think about it, when you think about DEI, what is a very tangible thing, that you can move forward as a benefit, as opposed to just saying, This is what we believe, and Ayana care can be one of those really tangible, practical and emotional benefits. And then, you know, with talent retention, you know, as we were saying, you know, 20% of the workforce is always right now reconsidering their work life integration. And so, you know, working really closely with time away from work and lead programs and ensuring that, you know, you should take leave, we don’t want to prevent you from taking leave, but take it at the optimal time. So you actually rest and then you actually come back because no one wants to have to quit it has financial and emotional impact on their whole family.

And then lastly, Andrea, I know that you’re you’re passionate about this is the whole mental health aspect. And some people say, okay, mental health, we know that’s a big thing. What does that have anything to do with caregiving? And why would employers need to care and when we think about the surge of mental health needs due to the pandemic, so there’s a whole spectrum of mental health right? Actually, my dad is a psychiatrist, who’s a psychiatrist going up, it’s a whole other story, but But you know, there’s a whole spectrum but when we think about this surge to the pandemic, it was honestly largely felt by family caregivers, because that’s where their support structure was completely cut off, added stress, you know, and family carriers are still carrying the brunt of that right now.

And so, you know, working with the clinical solutions, but addressing the whole other part of that mental health spectrum is the the source of why people feel extra burnt out which is all the care coordination logistics, the all the unknowns and figuring out which is what But we do. And so, I mean, it is I mean, that’s just three, I could we could have a whole hour conversation on why employers should care. But it’s just I think the biggest thing is caregiving isn’t a separate initiative for another subset of people, because HR leaders have so many people to consider, right. But instead thinking of it as a driver to these key existing initiatives, that caregivers are a huge part of

Andrea Herron
why I love that. And it’s just, it’s a new idea for a lot of businesses to even think of it in that way. But if you could make a difference in all of those initiatives you just mentioned, I mean, that is a huge win even small, incremental, you know, win, but a huge impact there. And so, yeah, so a lot to digest and think about, yeah, me even just thinking about just the things they kind of the bullet point list that caregivers have to think about, you know, appointment scheduling to fro pay the bills, I mean, it’s overwhelming, just to hear the bulleted list. So yeah, to you know, have some kind of resource or support or information could obviously make a big difference. Right.

So, I have another question. So, you know, and caregiving can be very personal. And we’re very cautious as we should be on how we deal with people’s personal information, how much we ask how much we don’t ask. And so I’m curious how HR and business leaders, you know, can navigate those sensitive situations in the privacy, but also want to be supportive. So what have you seen, like, be successful? Or if you’ve seen it, like, no, no, no, never do that, you know, anything you can share with that would be great. Yeah,

Jessica Kim
I actually love this habit is, you know, what we’ve seen really works, you’re right, it’s so personal, and people, right now, employees are very protective over this part of their personal life, because they are fearful still, that will impact their career, or their perception. And they’re working so hard. Because there are a lot of assumptions that people have, it’s you’re saying, I’m also caring for XY and Z. So there are two major things that I think really work one, we’ve worked really closely with amazing leaders, like HR leaders, like the VP of total awards, over at elevance health was the anthem, Donna Gibson and, and other leaders like that. And as we launched, we had her share her personal story, and of caregiving, and to see in such a big employer, you know, and and as, as high up as she is to be vulnerable and open, completely open the floodgates and the permission, if you will, for all employees, they have 68,000 plus, I think it’s more than that now, employees to say, Wow, Donna’s sharing this, she really means it like I’m, I’m welcomed here, like, you know, and then to come to couple that with a very tangible, practical solution, like Ionic hair, we saw that work so much, because the first aspect of it to your point, it’s people want to be private. And so they won’t even ask for help or know what the benefits are, because they’re so quiet. So that is the number one thing which is within a company’s culture. And we’ve seen that happen over and over again with several of our clients.

And but then privacy is critical. So HR leaders need to work with third party solutions, like IANAcare, I remember in the early days of building out ionic hair, some people would say, can you just white label this? And I remember that was an initial request. And I said, No, because no one will trust you. Because why would I put all of these details in my life, where I feel like my employer has access to everything, I’m not even going to use it, no one would do that. So that, that saying no to white labeling was because we wanted to actually serve our like our employee caregivers. And so working with a third party, but then the HR and the employers role is saying we’ve selected the best. This is why we selected the solution. And we have provided so we give all credit to the HR leaders and the employers to increase their loyalty and gratitude for the employees. But they definitely know it is a separate system. Everything is anonymous. We have it in all our rights. We do not share personal information unless the employee says it’s okay. That is so critical if you actually want to serve them because it is so personal. So I think it’s kind of like you know, it’s a mix of both. It’s being open so you can open up your culture. And then but it’s also to take privacy very seriously.

Andrea Herron
Yeah. And I think that would go for really any other third party apps or information that you are offering to your employees. So just a friendly reminder Everyone, even if it’s not explicitly stated somewhere, you should make it a point to let people know what’s anonymous and what information comes back or doesn’t. Even with EAP, I get this question a lot, like I’m maybe interested in reaching out, but what do they see? Do they know that I’m going for this appointment? You know, people are skeptical, and rightfully so there’s a lot of information on the internet. But just a great reminder there that privacy is super important, especially when it comes to your own personal information.

Jessica Kim
That’s a really good point. Andrea, I just want to chime in. Because I think that is a key point, actually, that you said is make sure people know what’s shared or not. So it’s not enough for us to know behind the scenes, but to make it very public and upfront, I think is a great takeaway.

Andrea Herron
Yeah, think about, you know, what would you want to know, I would want to know, what was being shared or not? Yeah. Okay. Um, so you we’ve talked a lot about the employer role. And obviously, that is important and relevant for the topic. But I’m curious, just, if you have advice for us, as humans, just as regular people, if we have friends or loved ones who are in a caregiving situation, is there any way we could support them? Like, do you have any best practices, ideas, things that really people love that you wouldn’t think of? Because I can imagine a lot of people’s first instinct is, let me know what you need. They’re not going to know, you know. So I mean, I think this is an area where we have the best of intentions, and we don’t always know what to do. So I’d love to hear any ideas you have.

Jessica Kim
Yeah, I mean, that’s exactly right. People always say, let me know what I could do to help and you don’t know what you need for help. And there’s so much what we realized after working with 1000s of caregivers, is that feeling like a burden on all sides, and all players of this situation is the number one reason why help is not exchanged. Isn’t that fascinating? Just the feeling of burden. And so we have this tagline that says just show up, actually, I’ll send you a t shirt that says that, it but it’s just as just show up. And what that really captures is like the worst thing that we can do, as friends and families and co workers is to stay quiet and do nothing.

But it happens eight out of 10 times because we feel like, Oh no, Andrea is going through something really hard. It’s awkward. She must be sad, I’ll just leave her alone, or we don’t know what to say. Because it’s so awkward. And we’re not trained in it in our culture, we don’t know what to say. That’s why that phrase is the only thing we know what to say. I’m sorry for your loss. And let me know what I could do to help. That’s what we’re trained to say. We got to go beyond that. But the the number one thing is you have to show up, drop off the meal, even if it’s not asked for as awkward as it is, you know, just reach out. My favorite thing is to text or leave a message and say, Andrea, no need to reply, I just wanted you to know that I am thinking of you, and that I just dropped off, you know, your favorite chicken soup outside of your door, no need to reply. And so that key phrase of no need to reply, then puts the burden lifts the burden off of the caregiver who is already now they’re like, oh, my gosh, Jessica just dropped off this meal. And now I have all these texts to reply to. And then so they’re just like, I don’t even want to deal with that obligation. So I’d rather do it alone, because I can’t even keep up with saying thank you. So when so if we all just like do everything just to show up and lift this burden. That goes a long way.

We’ve embedded a lot of so one of our first layers of support is the personal social circles. And it addresses that exact thing. People don’t know what to do for help, they don’t know how to ask for help. And so we’ve really embedded all those nuances where you invite all your friends and family onto the team. And it’s free, actually, this layer is free. So anyone listening can just start downloading it today. There’s no gimmicks, there’s no you know, catch there. But you can invite unlimited number of people on your team. And there’s only one reason why they’re there. And it’s because they actually say I do want to be here to support you. And you could put out requests for meals rides, respite care, child care, pet care, house errands, and then your friends can also offer you meals, rides, respite care, all of those things.

All the details are in one page, you click one button that says I got this and all the details go in both people’s calendars without doing any back and forth. Super private. It’s not social media. And it just really addresses like, how can we just all show up for each other? So it’s pretty amazing. Because we’ve seen teams that grow to over 200 supporters in a matter of four days. I love that. Yeah, but you know, the biggest thing Yeah, no need to reply as my biggest no need to reply. And then ironically, they ended up replying because they don’t feel obligated and you can you start sharing and being there for them.

Andrea Herron
Or they can reply two days later and there’s not that guilt about it being two days later.

Jessica Kim
It’s true.

Andrea Herron
Yeah, we can all do that. Just do something nice, nice reply. Oh, yeah. This has been very, very interesting. And I know we could talk more and more and more about it because it’s so nuanced and layered, but really appreciate those tips. But before we close it up and let you go, I would love for you to share with our audience something that most people might not know about you. Our favorite question here?

Jessica Kim
Yes. Do you like that? Well, you know, it’s interesting. Do you remember when we were young? And people would always ask us like, what do you want to be when you grow up? You know, we’ve probably asked our kids in our lives that too. And I remember answering, I don’t know, but I do know that I want to study people. Like even at 10 years old. That was my answer. And I’ve always just been so intrigued by people how our upbringing, cultural backgrounds, situational experiences, literally shaped the way we see and experience the world. So your world is different than my world, because of all of our past.

It’s probably because my dad is psychiatrists. I think that’s my fascination. And so, you know, I majored in anthropology, I did numerous ethnographies, throughout my career. And ultimately, you know, I feel like this is what business is all about, you know, we are building solutions to truly serve and allow people to feel seen and heard through the way that we provide solutions for them. And we cannot do that without truly understanding them first. And so I always think that it starts and ends with people. And in a nutshell, if you know me and get to know me, that is like what I am all

Andrea Herron
about. I love that little anthropologists, but what I would love to know and maybe, you know, someday you can ask your childhood friends. What was that like for them? Were you always asking them? What are you doing? Why are you doing that?

Jessica Kim
Yes, I actually was it was like, Why tell me when? Oh, was that because of this? Yeah.

Andrea Herron
They were like, my prefrontal cortex hasn’t evolved yet. I don’t know why I do things. I’m seven.

Jessica Kim
Hilarious. I would give them that.

Andrea Herron
Yeah. Well, let us know. If you have an update. We’ll tell the people. So thank you so much for joining us. It’s a really great conversation, and we will catch everybody next time on the HR scoop. Thank you for listening to the HR scoop podcast. Please take a moment to rate and subscribe on Spotify, Apple, Google, or directly at WebMD health services.com/podcasts